I had a pleasant conversation with a liberal art student…
Sarah
You must be the only painter who has this ultra conservative message behind your work. artists are known to be open-minded and against people who support money hungry, conservative, so-called "christians". you, sir, would be laughed out of my art school. i think it's time you "wake up".
Do you think I would care what "art school" thinks? This is a war of ideas and I do not agree with the liberal idealogy
Sarah
I would if i were you. if you call yourself an artist you
should hope that students would look up to your art and the message you are
conveying through your work. that's ok if you do not agree with liberal
Jon
Do you and your art student friends stand for modern day
Sarah
Indeed, i am telling you to "wake up". the
conservative movement is so against what this nation stands for: equal
opportunity, equal rights, fair taxes, fair trial, and accepting those who
differ in beliefs.
Jon
Sounds like Occupy Wall Street to me. There should only
be equal rights for everyone. Never should people be allowed equality of
things. You work for that. When the government gets in the business of
spreading the wealth around you never have liberty because somebody has to have
it taken from them in order to give to another. Such societies never survive
because they lose the incentive to succeed. This is EXACTLY why Obama should
not be in the White House. If Socialism is what you want, move to
Sarah
That's not socialism. i believe jesus taught spreading
the wealth to the less fortunate would get the wealthy into heaven. ("the
meek shall inherit the earth") equal rights does not constitute giving up
material things but those who are being given an unfair tax break do not
deserve to give the middle class their burden. obama stands for equality in the
hospital and in the eyes of the law. that is what the people of the american
nation want and believe in. having health care and an equal tax system is not equivalent
to socialism.
Sarah
What i pay in taxes is none of your business and i'm not
asking you what you pay for taxes. having universal health care is a good idea
for people who cannot afford health care and are not given the option through
their job. our tax system is not equal and it is not fair. if people like the
"1%" can pay a lower tax rate than those who make a small fraction of
their income is un-christian because that does take away from the poor. the
poor fund wars, they fight the wars, while the wealthy and well-connected have
an unfair advantage. clearly you do not recognize the kind of socialism you preach
against. the socialism you may be referring to that is evil in the soviet
union,
Jon
No that's Communism. I'm talking Socialism. Democratic
Socialism...which is where we are headed. Do you remember the Bolshevik revolutionaries
that were lead under Lenin? They wanted everything you just stated. Didn't end
pretty. You have lost your way in this country and forgot what it was that made
Sarah
Right,
because you clearly know me so well. i do pay for myself. i do my taxes on my
own. i am a full-time student and i work hard at my job. i get good grades and
i hope to be able to live off my artwork someday, too. i think you are mistaken for believing
we are headed in that direction. this is the
Jon
Hmmm. Bush added 4 trillion in 8 years and Obama added 5
trillion in 3 and a half years. And I don't think you have studied the
ramification of this Obamacare. It will increase our debt by another trillion
dollars and everyone agrees it will lower the quality of healthcare. The
majority of Americans did not want it and Obama pushed it through when he had
control of the Senate. He never tried to push through a balanced budget when he
had the chance. I'm glad you are working hard to find a career as an artist and
that you pay income taxes. Do you pay 30% to the federal government? Why should
some have to and others do not? You don't see us headed in the direction of 
wow you think an artist would be open minded but they are only open minded towards liberal views! She has a lot to learn about life and what true art is...
ReplyDeletei wonder if they even teach the history of art ? if they did, sounds like someone missed that class ;)
DeleteSara believes Mitt Romney pays a lower tax on his income. Does she realize that he was already taxed the HIGHEST rate on his money when it was originally made, and now pays a second tax as investment income? Why do liberals play the politics of envy with such little intellect in their comments?
ReplyDeleteThis conversation proved two things. 1) Liberals do not study history and so, do not learn from it,therefore they "are doomed to repeat it"(as the saying goes). 2) Their liberal views are the definition of insanity: Doing the same thing over and over always expecting a different result.
ReplyDeleteWhat a shame that Sara merely parrots what she has been told, and has no conception of simple facts - that the government involvement in healthcare thru Medicare and Medicaid LOWERED the standard of health care, and virulently increased the costs, which made it unaffordable. ObamaCare will not only raise the costs but lower the standard further - his own "model" for ObamaCare, England, lost 1700 more doctors this year and has cut care to the bone, forcing people to seek self-pay alternatives that bankrupt them - or die of simple problems that 30 years ago were fixed for far far less. 35 years ago I paid $500 for a three-day hospital stay to give birth to my first son, 8 years later we paid over $5000 for our youngest and me to have the same care... but then of course we have always worked for a living. I strongly object to paying for OTHERS' health care - I have no insurance, I have lupus, and NO ONE pays for my care but me. Under ObamaCare, I will be forced to pay more and will receive less care - while others who have never worked will get it 'for free' - out of my pocket. That is what socialism does - takes money from workers and gives it to shirkers.
ReplyDeleteObviously they do not teach economics or government studies in institutes of higher education anymore. Especially art school. Our education system is failing us all. The next time someone says that the government can do anything better - point out how well they have done with the education system.
ReplyDeleteReally? I'm one of the liberals that doesn't understand economics. Let's talk economics.
DeleteHere is medical costs per capita per year by three different countries (for 2007):
USA (current system) $6096
Switzerland (closest to Obamacare) $4011
Sweden (full socialized medicine) $2828
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0934556.html
I use Switzerland because they are the closest to Obamacare. But Sweden’s full socialized system is even cheaper.
Government seems to do health care cheaper. Even stranger the more socialized a health care system is the cheaper it is. So government can do some things better.
Let's talk about a liberal economist Paul Krugman who predicted the mess were in back in 2005.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/27/opinion/27krugman.html
Oh, he also has a Nobel prize in economics. But then again liberals don't know economics.
Troy, I know you want to debate me. You always show up on my blog wanting to get into it. I will get back with you next week when I have more time to talk. You throw out all these statistics and that requires me to have to do a little research. That's good for me, so I thank you. You are wrong though, Socialism is dreadful.
DeleteI look forward to it Jon. I am not a socialist, though there are parts of socialism that I agree with. Here is a fully socialist website:
Deletehttp://www.pslweb.org/party/marxism-101/eight-myths-about-socialism.html
This is why I keep asking people on your forum, including you, to give their definition of socialism. So I can openly say whether I agree with certain tenets or not.
This is also why I bring up Sweden. Even Sweden is not socialist. Quoting CIA World factbook: "Privately owned firms account for vast majority of industrial output." Socialism allows for no privately owned firms.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/sw.html
The best definition of what most liberals want would be "European styled socialism". Even in this, the Swedish model is too far to the left for most democrats, including me. But it is a good example of the most liberal of liberals. And if that's as scary as it gets, most of this site's mockery of liberals is unfounded.
But if your definition of socialism includes a government-paid cop helping a lady change her tire on the side of the road, then yes, I am a socialist.
Nothing you've said here has thrown me off. Our country currently is moving toward a democratic socialistic style of government. We're not at the level of Sweden yet, but Obama would like to see us do that. I would like to give you a whole blog post to ask your questions next week. I'd like it to be a friendly discussion. What do you say?
DeleteGroovy
DeleteAWWWW SNAP!
ReplyDeleteAGAIN!
I love these conversations you keep posting from Facebook where you are slamming these librals. Check and mate, Sarah! (seriously what kind of person calls them self Sarah? I'll tell you what kind of person: Someone who is blind to the truth about Obama) McNaughton wins again. Brilliant. All hail the one true prophet: McNaughton.
Keep them coming and keep the faith.
I already posted this to the link to this blog on your Facebook page, but thought it might have more meaning here...
ReplyDeleteDo you often target students who have little experience in debating social issues and then ridicule them in your blog?
If you ever want an honest debate with a "liberal artist" who you can't walk over, let me know and I'll put you in touch with some. I've got some friends who enjoy a lively discussion.
In fact, I'm a somewhat liberal artist (musician) myself and our conversation in the comment section on your Facebook post dealing with "gay marriage" might be a good place to start. You have my permission to post it here on your blog...
I chose not to in detail respond to what you said because it didn't look interesting enough for me to take the time. I get lots of people throwing stuff at me. I like good debate. Perhaps I can talk with your friends at some time in the future.
Delete@ Jon McNaughton
DeleteThe Liberal/Conservative Dichotomy doesn't always work out. Part of this is the fact that there's a diverse political spectrum that falls under each of these categories. Many of the arguments you have posted on your site are between yourself and 'liberals' with flawed arguments. Just because you can poke holes in their side of the conversation, doesn't mean that your own argument is closer to the truth. Also, (I know that she was asking for it by posting such comments, but,) she was just a student, try picking on a teacher instead. i.e. pick on someone your own size.
I would agree that Sarah made a weak argument, and posted some irrational, unfounded statements. But that doesn't sway my own point of view in the least. At best it serves to strengthen the views of conservatives who need the arguments of weak-minded liberals to *feel* like their own positions are justified.
I'm curious to see the direction that these online debates are taking... but please find someone to debate that can make a valid argument.
Wow! I can't get past Sarah's belief that artist's should conform to statist aims and ideas! What the heck are they teaching in her art school? Is she at Mein Kampf University?
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteSome ruminations I've posted elsewhere and am quoting here:
ReplyDelete"The question is whether government is the best equipped organization to provide for them. My thought is that no it is not, much of it due to inefficiency and corruption inherent in the large amount of power they wield. I think having the government run something is no better than having a monopoly run something in the private sector, because that is essentially what the government becomes when it takes more and more control over an industry, it monopolizes it. Any monopoly leads to inefficiency, lower competition for quality in a product, overregulation that may lead to price increases, etc.
Concerning healthcare, I do think there needs to be reform in the healthcare industry, but as far as everyone purchasing a product as mandated by the government, that among other things I think goes too far. When misused, government seeks to create an environment where people will increasingly become dependent on it for any kind of care or goods. The fact that so many are is the result of that fact playing out in the lives of many as we drift that direction in our federal government".
And paraphrasing...
Universal health care necessitates rationing of medical care, it takes about a decade to train doctors, if everyone instantly has care, you can imagine the slow service and overworked doctors that will result. Expect months of wait time and an elimination of preventative care like colonoscopies. Side note, Canada does not allow colonoscopies for that reason. Even now some doctors are leaving the medical industry because they earn less than they can make in other industries, Obamacare will do nothing to change that but will instead only compound the problem with the added cost of a massive new bureaucracy.
On socialism…socialism does lead to communism. As other have asserted, both remove incentive to work when earnings are undercut by being given to those who have not earned it. Such a social mandate is always then further exacerbated by a corrupt government, which leads to an overall equality of poverty. Socialism is essentially paying people to remain poor. Socialism may look good on paper, in theory, and maybe even in some speeches, but it cannot compete with capitalism when it comes to a real world scenario. Capitalism is not perfect, but it has successfully created the largest middle class in history.
Quoting myself again:
"Privatization works because if I don't like a company's product, I don't buy it and they go out of business. They had better produce a quality product at decent price compared to their competitors. With the government, they can never go out of business, no matter how poor the quality of the product or service. They have no competition, and you have no choice as a citizen if they are the only provider. In that case, you forfeit your rights as a citizen".
Socialism banks on government being incorruptible, and much less corruptible than private sector corporations, that has been historically proven not to be the case. It has been estimated that approximately 94 million lives have been lost due to the social experiment called communism.
How many lives lost to the poverty and war caused by capitalism? You can't compare one government's version of communism to another governments socialized policies. If we followed that flawed line of reasoning, we would be comparing pro-Capitalist's ideologies to those of the United Kingdom, Australia, New Zealand, Austria, Ireland, Sweden, Switzerland, Israel, Japan, South Korea, Luxembourg, Norway, Bermuda, Iceland, Denmark, San Marino, Belgium Netherlands, Finland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Slovenia, Hong Kong, Singapore, Bahrain, Chile, Estonia, Mauritius, Cyprus, Macau, Germany, Lithuania, Taiwan, St. Lucia, Qatar, Georgia, Spain, Uruguay, Oman,Armenia, Jordan, El Salvador, Botswana, Peru, Barbados, Columbia, United Arab Emirates, Mexico, Costa Rica, Hungary, Trinidad, Tobago, Saint Vincent, the Grenadines, Malaysia, Saudi Arabia, Macedonia, Latvia, Malta, Jamaica, Panama, Bulgaria, Kuwait, Thailand, Romania, France, Cape Verde, Turkey, Poland, Portugal, Albania, Belize, Croatia, Uganda, South Africa, Guatemala, Samoa, Italy, Greece and Lebanon.
DeleteI'm sure you realize how diverse these peoples, their governments, and their ideologies reareally are.
Also, real socialists DO NOT consider Obama to be a socialist. Obama is actually a CAPITALIST like all of the other American Leaders, he's just being hit by propaganda because he's not a Republican. Someone has convinced you he's the Antichrist, when (as far as American Presidents go,) he's probably not so bad.
I'm a Canadian, and I watch the same news media that you do. I'm a student, and if I broke my leg by accident while riding a bike I know that it won't ruin my entire life. If I was living in the U.S. I have no idea what I'd do. We have medicare over here, its not perfect, (nothing's perfect,) but it works fine. Would you consider Canada to be a communist country?
Nathan, You argue that capitalism has led to just as many deaths in numerous countries. Were those deaths in the name of capitalism or simply ruthless dictators murdering other people. The free market simply allows the buying and selling of goods without government intervention. Communism on the other hand, does it at the edge of a sword and sweeps away the opposition. Obama is a socialist. He may not be the Lenin type, but he is none the less a full fledged Socialist. His policy statements are every bit as extreme at Europe's Democratic Socialitic policies. The left tries to avoid the brand as Socialist since most Americans shudder at the word. I'm also sorry about your leg. If you had been in America you would have been taken care of. Heck, we treat all the Illegal Aliens too.
DeleteWell the socialists don't think Obama is a socialist and they say why.
Deletehttp://articles.cnn.com/2010-04-14/politics/Obama.socialist_1_socialist-agenda-democratic-socialists-health-care-bill?_s=PM:POLITICS
@Jon McNaughton
DeleteFirst of all Jon, I would like to thank you for responding to my comment. Second, I would like to state that I don't appreciate the fact that some of the people who don't agree with your politics are attacking you personally instead of fully explaining what it is they're getting at. I do respect you as a human being, and I admire your technical abilities as an artist. And I think its cool that you paint for what you believe in, I think more people should do that.
I'm not out to prove you wrong, but to provoke thought and dialogue. Its the only way you or I, a Conservative or a Liberal , can truly explore and validate our own convictions.
To answer your first question, I don't think that people always literally use the name of capitalism in their conquest of land, resources, freedom, or commerce - but I do think that the type of Capitalism we see today does in fact provoke violent relationships, and maintain imbalances of power. That doesn't necessarily mean that I'm suggesting that 'communism' is the answer. People often assume that you are either 'this,' or 'that,' when it comes to politics, but I would like for us all to get beyond that dichotomy.
I can understand your sentiment towards Privatization as the alternative to Government Control. I also believe in small government, and I don't think that the Government should have a hand in every aspect of our lives, (if any.) But we do have healthcare here in Canada, and although its not perfect, (what is?) it does work fine.
I think that this ObamaCare thing is blown out of proportion. Someday, I would hope that healthcare would be a worldwide human right. The main problem with healthcare here, (besides wait-times which are a minor issue in the grand scope of things,) is that it drives up the taxes on products like Alcohol, and Cigarettes. But this makes sense to me. And Canada is just as Capitalist as the United States
I feel that there are larger issues to focus on. I see more people slamming Obama in the so-called liberal media for ObamaCare then I did for Bush's War on Iraq, (that was considered an illegal/criminal action by the rest of the world.) I think that this could be the result of people propagating against Obama in general, because he is a Democrat, and the Government has been Republican for so long.
[...]
... But don't get me wrong, I'm not Obama' s biggest fan. The military's still running strong, with more drone activity then ever. Osama is dead. And the symptoms of Capitalism are still going untreated. Medicare will only be a small step towards a healthier country. I don't think that its a grand solution to the Country's problems, but I don't think it needs to become such a problem. Maybe if its being done the wrong way he should change his approach towards it. But socialized Medicare is not a step towards communism, don't worry too much about that. Canada is still VERY Capitalist.
DeleteSorry for going on such a tangent... but Capitalism does a lot of violence to Civilization. My ultimate issue with it would be the fact that it makes profit the overriding motivation of society. This isn't good for the soul. It also leads to vanity, gluttony, greed and ultimately, violence & crime.
The Free Trade movement, (although attractive in theory, like communism,) has unfortunately lead to a Global situation where we, the people, end up serving the economy instead of being served by it. Think of when all those people lost their homes! The recession! The Depression! These events weren't due to a lack of resources, they were due to an uneven distribution of said resources. Jesus knew that we are generally oppressed by the rich - Jesus knew this, he even said so himself:
"Is it not the rich who are exploiting you?" (James 2:6)
I don't know what your finances are like - but most 'socialists' don't want to take money away from you and your family. The thing is that certain people and corporations, (and they are few,) have an inhumane amount of wealth. Just a fraction of this could provide healthcare to all. Your right, Jesus did not say for them to give their money to the government so that they can decide what is to be done with it - but we all pay taxes to the government anyway. The Free Trade movement generally supports disproportionate taxing when it big business. This isn't hurting the affluent, but hurts us, the discluded, the lower, middle, and even upper-middle class.
I guess, all I really want to say is that Capitalism has reached a moral crisis - and I don't think that Obama should be the focus in considering this crisis. I believe that We the People, should openly discuss these problems, outside of party divisions.
Obama not a socialist?
DeleteDo a Google search for "Obama's socialist mentor"
and you might come up with information such as that found here:
http://www.aim.org/aim-column/obamas-communist-mentor/
http://www.aim.org/aim-column/obamas-red-mentor-was-a-pervert/
http://www.colorfultimes.com/2010/06/society/politics/barack-obamas-connections-to-socialism-communism-and-racial-divisiveness/
http://commieblaster.com/obama/index.html
People associated with Barack Obama who are socialists or communists include:
-Barack Hussein Obama Sr. (Socialist)
-Frank Marshall Davis (Member of the Communist Party)
-Saul Alinsky (Socialist)
-Reverend Jeremiah Wright (Marxist philosophist)
-William Ayers (Anti-capitalist radical)
-Bernardine Dohrn (Marxist-Leninist & convicted criminal)
-Mike Klonsky (Maoist)
-Marylin Katz (Socialist)
-Carl Davidson (Maoist)
-Bill Fletcher (Maoist)
-Cornel West (Socialist & Anti-Capitalist)
-Alice Palmer (Communist)
Saul Alinsky is a socialist?
DeleteHere's Hillary Clinton's master's thesis (1969) on Saul Alinsky.
http://www.gopublius.com/HCT/HillaryClintonThesis.pdf
Alinsky on the welfare system and New Deal
Page 15 (I had to count from the top since the pdf doesn't have page numbers):
"Welfare programs since the New Deal have neither redeveloped poverty
areas nor even catalyzed the poor into helping themselves. A cycle of dependency has been created which ensnares its victims into resignation and
apathy."
Page 50
"Alinsky's periodic outbursts about the hypocrisy of the War on Poverty have provided unforgettable copy-especially his labeling the entire
effort a 'prize piece of political pornography...a huge political pork
barrel, and a feeding trough for the welfare industry, surrounded by sanctimonious, hypocritical, phony, moralistic------.'"
Explaining how an organization should work
Page 20:
"It becomes completely self-financed at the end of approximately
three years. This not only testifies to its representative character
in that the local residents support their own organization financially, but insures to the local council the acid test of independence: 'the ability to pay one's way.'"
Yeah he's quite the socialist.
Nathan, I am a little surprised. You sound like an open minded liberal. I would like to discuss with you these things. I don't have time just now, but I will get back with you. I actually agree with you on some things and view differently some others, but that is what make for a good conversation. I'll be back.
DeleteTroy (my brother's name by the way),
DeleteAlinsky considered himself part of the "new socialist movement". He was a community organizer and authored the book "Rules for Radicals". He also was a political organizer. Although I will admit that he is probably one of the weaker links to Obama on the list. Regarding the list, I noted that you did not focus on any of the other people and their ties to socialism and Obama.
This guy says it best, Tom Woods, author of Meltdown:
ReplyDeletePart 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBdcKCsPBkQ
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDa4WAfffAM
Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sh1IkyXY6WI
Part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8SRqUWapDI
This artist is a Joke on so many levels ! He has got to be kidding when he says he uses metaphor and there are different levels of meaning...haha ! As an artist myself I would feel embarrassed by this work. A 4th grader can do better! Its like that horrible "Starving Artist" crap. No creativity at all. And thats just of the art itself. Although I do not agree with any of his political views and he has his right to express them , I would think a real artist could be a bit more creative ,maybe a touch of subtlety. Its a shame because this man actually has some talent but does not have a creative bone in his body. FAIL !
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteThe message is not meant to be subtle, that would betray the meaning. I think realism is very creative, realism mimics what God created, do you think the creations of the universe also display "no creativity at all"? You sound like one of those modern art abstract proponents, well we all know even an elephant can do that type of work.
Deletehttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=He7Ge7Sogrk
Try getting a fourth grader to do the exacting reproduction of a person's likeness.
What's REALLY in the ObamaCare Package... http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=HcBaSP31Be8&vg=medium
ReplyDeleteI work 10 months out of the year and am considered "part-time" - I do not get paid for the 2 months I do not work (not on salary). So what is going to happen when my employer is forced to provide healthcare for all of the employees who do not currently have healthcare thru them? Easy - someone's getting fired (probably several someones)so they can afford to pay for everyone else. Yup, and we're not alone - small businesses forced to pay for their employees' healthcare will add to the already high unemployment levels in this country. While this not only smacks private employers, it will also cost public employees as well - your taxes will go up so that your towns and counties, states and even Federal employers, can pay the "healthcare tax". The ObamaCare plan is a tax across the board. People who don't understand how the economy works don't grasp this at all.
Reminds me of the artist Hans Schweitzer. Compare the two and the similarities are amazing!
ReplyDeleteThis conversation and these comments don't prove anything about "liberals" or "conservatives" other than that they both love to demonize the other. THAT is what is destroying America: it's not the "liberal elite" or "conservative pigs;" it's the unwillingness of anyone to listen to or try to understand anyone else whose opinion differs from their own. Every time I see someone say that all liberals or all conservatives are ignorant and can't formulate ideas that aren't given to them by the media, I just want to scream. That doesn't accomplish ANYTHING.
ReplyDeleteThank you! For me it is fascinating to learn more about why people believe what they do, even if I vehemently disagree with them.(A shout out to the First Amendment here).
DeleteYou are so right, generalized "sniping" and unflattering labels on either side of an issue provides nothing of value. It does not move the dialogue along and prevents the very thing that makes a Democratic Republic work, the power of a united people. When we are so divided as fellow Americans, we lose sight of who we are as a nation and that puts us at great risk.
However, I would disagree with you that ideology of one sort or another has nothing to do with destroying America. Obviously, some things move us away from the ills we are now facing and others do not, no matter how attached any of us is to our own proposed solutions.
The way I see it, the only way to resolve the problems of our nation is for all of us, regardless of our differences, to come together with respect and the willingness to have our pet convictions be challenged and put to the test so we can learn from one another and then be able move forward in friendship and commitment to what we have in common to save our country, rather than allowing our passions to divide and destroy us.
Dear Jon, as an artist myself, it is so refreshing to see another conservative artist! I applaud you for your beautiful works of art and for your fresh bold and brave ability to speak out and speak as a true American! God Bless. :)
ReplyDeleteI'm having my ENGL 1301 Comp 1 class analyze and evaluate the rhetoric of these paintings. They have been learning about critical thinking - including identifying fallacies, unfair emotional appeals, untrue or questionable premises, and judging the character and credibility of the author / artist. If the artist is interested in reading what these fine students see in his work, he should contact me.
ReplyDelete